Crossofstgeorge Debate

[Hotspur]

PATRIOT: Take down your flag or we'll prosecute, woman toldPATRIOTIC Tina Griffin has been ordered to wave goodbye to one of her St George's flags – or face prosecution.

Red tape means Tina will have to cough up £220 to Peterborough City Council for special consent to fly the crisp white flags with their dazzling red crosses, or go to court.

Today Tina, who proudly keeps her flags washed before they flutter on their 5ft metal flagpoles by the bedroom window, said: ''It's ridiculous that you can't fly the flag of your own country.''

Tina (35), her husband Nigel (37) and children Jamie (12), Mark (10) and Sophie (4) are all football fans and decided to fly the flags for the European Championships, in June, last year.

They have become a fixture at the house in Edinburgh Avenue, Werrington, Peterborough, ever since.

Then came a letter from the city council warning that flying the flags was in breach of planning laws.

Now, like the Patron Saint facing the dragon, Tina finds herself the underdog in a battle with the local authority.

The Griffins were warned that the flags were classed as "unauthorised advertising" and the family was "liable to enforcement action" if they did not pay for permission.

She said: "It just beggars belief. How can they tell me what to do with my own house? "I am an English patriot but it is not a racist thing. We put the flags up for our two boys who both love football and wanted to show their support for England. We are all proud to be English."

A spokesman for the council confirmed today that flying two national flags is against regulations and it could prosecute.

Today, her neighbours were divided on the subject.
Paul Lewkowicz (4 said: "If they are acting against any rules they should abide by them and take the flags down."

Fellow resident Helen Wood said: "The council should leave Tina alone. It is private property and I am all for the display of the flags."

However, John Clemence of the Royal Society of St George said: "The whole thing is quite ludicrous.''
29 April
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Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[tyke]

Unauthorised advertising? Good grief.
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Write Celt Geld/ or Celt Gelt if you prefer Lance, on the reverse side of ALL English bank notes as a peaceful protest at the Barnett Formula. You an also do it on any Scottish notes you may handle. This is worth a dozen letters in the press and something the media cannot control.

[Hotspur]

No Europeans have the same affinity with flags as the English
By Jim White
(Filed: 30/04/2005)



Despite being relentlessly touted as the Battle of Britain, Wednesday's Champions League semi-final was not that useful in helping us identify the soul of English football. Not when a mere six of the 27 players used in the match are English and both the managers hail from the Iberian peninsula. Nor will next month's FA Cup final allow us to make any fundamental conclusions about the condition of our national game, even if it does feature the two clubs Patrick Vieira describes as England's finest. How could it, when it will pitch Scot against Frenchman in the dug-out and is unlikely to showcase more than seven Englishmen kicking a ball around a patch of Welsh turf.

In fact, if someone coming fresh to the sport wanted to understand what it is that makes English football unique, it might be more instructive to side-step matches featuring our top teams and head instead to the local bookshop. David Winner's recent top seller, Those Feet, A Sensual History of English Football, has this week been joined on the shelves by the photographer Stuart Clarke's England the Light, giving us two books which come as close as any to defining the English game.

Winner's work has won acclaim for its intriguing insistence that the sport's roots in this country lie in Victorian moral panic; fearful that their charges would be led into self-abuse by idleness, devout 19th century schoolmasters codified football to keep youthful minds from wandering. And that puritanical ethic has informed our game ever since, making us value effort, toil and teamwork above beauty, skill and individuality.

But while Winner thinks English football is all about masturbation, Stuart Clarke sees its essence in flags. The cover of his book of pictures consists of a wonderful, wide-angled shot of England fans at Euro 2004, their flags draped over every corner of Lisbon's Stadium of Light, announcing affiliations to Hastings, Crawley, Ambleside and Kettering. These flags, with their messages adorning the cross of St George ("London Clarets", "the Three Tuns, Willenhall", "Salop Boys Love Gravy") carry abroad reminders of small-town home. And once there, they are displayed with all due reverence; tellingly, in Clarke's photo, not a single flag appears to overlap another.

Speaking from his home in Cumbria, Clarke says of the new English standard-bearer: "The flag gives him gravitas. It was borne by the Crusaders and bedecked the ships of the explorers and of those who 'civilised' the world and in recent times saved the free world. I am not just me I am the flag, says the bearer."

It is not just about history, either. There is too, Clarke reckons, a more immediate reason for the popularity of the cross of St George.

"It's a cool graphic," he says.

The country's leading photographer of football supporters, Clarke returned from Portugal with an astonishing collection of images of the nation's decorated bed sheets on tour. As is revealed by the book's final inclusion, a snap of four people carrying one of his pictures into an exhibition space, these are huge-scale works, with wide fisheye lenses taking in a stadium's worth of standards. As such, we can appreciate all the better quite what a dominant item the English fan's flag is.

And a unique one. An ecumenical reporter, when he was in Portugal, Clarke also photographed the orange hordes of the Dutch, the yellow and blue mass of Swedes, the bouncy, noisy, victorious Greeks. But none of them have quite the same eye-catching affinity with flags as the English. Intriguingly, the flag's popularity has grown even as the English domestic game has become more cosmopolitan. Maybe those who carry them wish to ensure there is a corner of our increasingly foreign game that will remain forever England.


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Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[wonkotsane]

Good old Papua New Guinea - you can always rely on them for advice ...

http://www.papuaweb.org/dlib/lap/sullivan/en/symbols.rtf

[Versus]

Not that there is any point in a human rights law when Blair can suspend it whenever he wants. . . It hardly protects any real civil liberties, it's just a token gesture because we haven't got a codified constitution. We wouldn't need one if Blair wasn't such an omnipresent C***.

Why would you need planning permission to fly a flag? I didn't think it was like a house extension. Do you need planning permission to build a shed?
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[wonkotsane]

They told her she needed planning permission because under the Town and Country Planning act 1990, flags are explicitly mentioned as advertising and regulation of same comes under the control of the local authority. However, national flags are not governed by that Act. The only way the local authority would be legally entitled to prevent her flying the flag was if the flag pole breached planning regulations, if it was dangerous or if the flag had been modified.
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English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
Wonko's World Blog

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[Versus]

Ahhh, thank you for that piece of information .
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[Barry (The Elder)]

The debate about flying the CoSG was discussed here about two years ago, something that Gareth and Tally (Hotspur) looked into at great length.

The CoSG is de facto Englands flag and although being recognised as such it is not by any statute in Parliament laid down in law as being such.

There are no laws that govern the flying of the CoSG, merely that it should be safe and not cause a hazard, infact the only law relating to flags that effects the CoSG is that it is flown when in tandem with the Union Flag that the UF takes presidence and is flown above, this relates to all flags when being flown along side the UF anything else is a breach of flag ettiquet.

Just as an aside I was interviewed on SGD in Covent Garden and was asked about whether we should have a black line bordering the red cross to reflect the ethnic culture of England, my answer to this was, when the ethnic community have defended the CoSG for over 700 years and have
assimilated themselves to English culture then so be it but as they consider themselves British and cannot identifiy themeselves with England it will a be long time coming.
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Till we have built Jerusalem!
Regards Barry

[Deleted]

Barry, just as an interesting aside, the Union flag has never been officially recognised as the national flag by any such statute either. So if they are using those rules then I will put in an official complaint about the one fluttering above Westminster (and possibly above Peterborough council buildings).

[wonkotsane]

Actually Gareth, the Union Flag was established as the flag of the UK by royal perogative which is a law of sorts. I'm not sure if the Queen is still entitled to royal perogative - I'd have to do some research.
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English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
Wonko's World Blog

Tour of Britain
Traitor Blair
Lame Duck
Minority Rule
Sepp Blatter

[Hotspur]

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=1013963


ok I think this warrants a few letters of support for Mrs Griffin.


eteditor@peterboroughtoday.co.uk
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Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[Phoenix]

[Versus]

[sam]

Exactly what do these morons think is being advertised? Councils appear to be full of wankers.
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Political Correctness is a school of thought for those who lack the ability to think for themselves

[Christopher1986]

Plymouth city council don't even fly the union jack... they fly the EU flag.