Crossofstgeorge Debate

[tyke]

[Hotspur]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4444202


2:11pm (UK)
Colourful Patriotism

By Tony Jones, PA


You could spot the ardent fans of England’s patron saint by the red and white they wore mirroring the colours of the flag of St George.

One woman sported a red rose on the lapel of a white coat |, while another had a cap with the same hues perched on her head.


All were unapologetic of their love for their country and their desire to support the national day of their patron saint.

June Wady, 71, from Victoria, central London, who stood in the rain watching the ceremony at the Cenotaph said: “I’m proud of my country and I think we should have a holiday to mark St George’s day

“Today used to be called Empire Day when I was at school, there’d be red, white and blue bunting up and people would have impromptu parties.

“It’s nice to come together and share the same culture.”

Debbie Williams, from Bloomsbury in central London, was in Whitehall to see her 14-year-old daughter Eliana, an army cadet, on parade with her colleagues.

“I’m not a racist, I don’t discriminate but I want to keep our heritage unlike Tony Blair and Michael Howard. It’s almost criminal to be English
_________________
Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[wonkotsane]

[Versus]

[wonkotsane]

From: Stuart Parr
Date: 05/01/05 11:56:39
To: eteditor@peterboroughtoday.co.uk
Subject: Flying the Cross of St George

Hi,

I read the story you ran about Tina Griffin which I believe was on 29th April. basically, she has ben threatened with legal action by Peterborough City Council for flying her flags at her home.

I know a couple of people have written to you about this but I thought I would write in too as it was me that did the research into legality of it after reading about the story on the Cross of St George forums (http://crossofstgeorge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6348&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

Basically, there are two relevant arguments in favour of Tina Griffin and two against. The two arguments in favour are:

The flying of your flag and celebration of your national identity are protected under international human rights laws.
The Town & Country Planning Act 1990 applies to advertising flags which only includes national flags if they are modified.
The two arguments against are:

If the national flag is modified it falls under the banner of advertising.
The structure the flag is attached to or the size of the flag itself may fall under planning regulations because of its size, physical struture or if it's dangerous.

So, unless Tina Griffin was flying modified flags the council don't have a leg to stand on. My guess, however, is that the flags have either ENGLAND or a local football teams name on them as she erected them during a football tournament. I can see the council having a case if the flags feature a local football teams name. If it features the word ENGLAND then I guess it could go either way - the council could argue that it is advertising the England team whereas Tina Griffin could argue it is merely the name of the country.

My sources are:

http://www.papuaweb.org/dlib/lap/sullivan/en/symbols.rtf
http://www.andrewgeorge.org.uk/press/504.htm

In conclusion, if she is flying a plain Cross of St George the local authority have no authority over the flag.
_________________
English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
Wonko's World Blog

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[Barry (The Elder)]

I have the picture of the flags flying from either side of Tina's window and they are not disfigured at all, just plan CoSG.

I have wriiten the following to the Peterborough Evening Telegraph


Sir

I read your article regarding Tina Griffins plight in being patriotic and flying two flags of St.George, apparently having two flags breeches local regulations and is construde as advertising, it amazes me that these flags have been flying since June of last year, plenty of time for the council to react, but no they leave it till St.George's Day then put there jackboots in, although not a resident of Peterborough I bet ten to a penny there are other instances of this kind that are ignored, what the people of Peterborough have to ask is, what kind of councillors do they have when those councillors decide to pick on a patriotic family flying the flag of England? Are they embarrassed by their own country's flag? and what exactly would St.George be advertising? Recently David Blunkett MP said that we should be proud of England and her history, yet when one family decide to do such they are picked on by a bereaucracy with nothing better to do.
_________________
Till we have built Jerusalem!
Regards Barry

[Hotspur]

St George’s flag will flutter thanks to the Maid of Montreal
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THE FLAG of St George will be fluttering proudly from the top of Macclesfield Town Hall this Saturday but only after a year long battle from a patriotic resident – of Montreal.

Dorothy Williams, 52, originally from Macclesfield but living in Canada since 1981, puts up the St George’s Cross outside her Montreal home every April 23.

So last year, while on holiday in her former home town, she was dismayed to see the town hall flag being hastily taken down at lunchtime and replaced with the Union Flag.

Mum-of-three, Dorothy went into the council offices to ask why and was told they needed special permission from the Queen to fly the St George Cross.

Undeterred she began a year-long correspondence via email with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and the council about the regulations. And after scores of emails, believes she has now proved that the regulations don’t apply.

She demanded the flag is flown this year, and the council has now relented.

The former Macclesfield librarian said: “Myself and many other people of the town were dismayed to see St George’s Flag had been replaced by the Union Flag.

“A group went into the town hall and were told the flag can only be flown if Her Majesty The Queen granted special permission and Macclesfield didn’t have that permission.

“I have been in discussion with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport since last year to determine the definitive rules. It would appear that the decision to remove the national flag of England on St George’s Day was incorrect or at least unnecessary.

“The regulation they quoted applies to buildings occupied by Government civil servants, not town halls.

“Since there is no regulatory reason for St George’s Flag to be banned, I expect to see it flying over Macclesfield Town Hall on the day. I firmly believe it is about time that the English people of Macclesfield reclaim their right to express their loyalty to England and her patron saint.

“Other nations that make up the UK are encouraged to cherish heritage, to be proud and to celebrate St David’s Day, St Patrick’s Day and St Andrew’s Day.

“If we, as English people are being discouraged by our local authority to celebrate similarly then this may be regarded by some as racism.”

Wesley Fitzgerald, leader of the council, said: “Last year the borough council flew the Union Flag on St George’s Day.

“This was because the borough council takes its lead from national guidance available for the flying of flags on Government and public buildings.

“This guidance basically includes a list of dates whereby the Queen gives command to fly the Union Flag from 8am to sunset on Government and public buildings throughout the year.

“In addition to St George’s Day, this includes other significant dates throughout the year, including the birthday of the Queen and Remembrance Sunday. This guidance is viewed as best practice and is followed by most local authorities.

“There has been growing support for the St George’s Cross to be flown on St George’s Day, April 23, rather than the Union Flag. Therefore, St George’s Flag will be flown at the town hall on Saturday.”


Author
Paul Taylor
_________________
Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[Phoenix]

[wonkotsane]

Charles Kennedy would be first for the rope then - the Lib Dems are republicans.
_________________
English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
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[Hotspur]

WHEN IS A FLAG NOT A FLAG?
Next Story | Previous Story | Back to list

11:00 - 06 April 2005
Councillor Stringer says he is flabbergasted by the complaints about flying flags on Babbacombe Downs without planning permission.

What Cllr Stringer should take note of is all the reports from across the country of councils or mayors who for political correctness tell people to take down the St George's flag because it might upset the ethnic minorities. We hear or read of people told to take down the English flag and in London of taxi drivers told not to display it on their cabs.

The big problem Cllr Stringer has got is that they didn't apply for planning so like it or not I and others will complain if they leave the EU flag up because as it stands it's an advert not a country flag so needs planning permission.

The outcry last time this council tried to fly this flag should have warned them to do everything by the book so now they will have to remove this flag or try for planning and see how many Torbay people complain.

So what is the planning law? It's the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992 and for this purpose the EU flag is classified as an (outdoor) advertisement). So there you have it. Leave it up and I for one will complain. Take it down and try for planning consent I will object along with others.

If my nation's flag has to be removed because small ethnic groups might complain I for one will shout loud and long for the EU rag to be removed because it offends me.

MIKE SIMPSON

vice-chairman

UK Independence Party

Torbay branch
_________________
Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[Hotspur]

WHEN IS A FLAG NOT A FLAG?
Next Story | Previous Story | Back to list

11:00 - 06 April 2005
Councillor Stringer says he is flabbergasted by the complaints about flying flags on Babbacombe Downs without planning permission.

What Cllr Stringer should take note of is all the reports from across the country of councils or mayors who for political correctness tell people to take down the St George's flag because it might upset the ethnic minorities. We hear or read of people told to take down the English flag and in London of taxi drivers told not to display it on their cabs.

The big problem Cllr Stringer has got is that they didn't apply for planning so like it or not I and others will complain if they leave the EU flag up because as it stands it's an advert not a country flag so needs planning permission.

The outcry last time this council tried to fly this flag should have warned them to do everything by the book so now they will have to remove this flag or try for planning and see how many Torbay people complain.

So what is the planning law? It's the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992 and for this purpose the EU flag is classified as an (outdoor) advertisement). So there you have it. Leave it up and I for one will complain. Take it down and try for planning consent I will object along with others.

If my nation's flag has to be removed because small ethnic groups might complain I for one will shout loud and long for the EU rag to be removed because it offends me.

MIKE SIMPSON

vice-chairman

UK Independence Party

Torbay branch
_________________
Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[sam]

[wonkotsane]

I can't find any mention of the monarchy in their current manifesto but when I was first old enough to vote (9 years ago) and did some research into the political parties, Lib Dems were definately republican.
_________________
English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
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[Hotspur]

SOAPBOX: St George's prosecution threat - 03/05/05Readers cross about flag row
I refer to your front page story about the lady who has been told to take down her flags ("Take down your flag or we'll prosecute, woman told", The Evening Telegraph, April 29).

I can see this story from both sides. In one way, I can see how people might find them annoying so long after the event, however, I can also relate in the element of "national pride" that some people take in flying their own countries flag.

I can also understand the need for regulations.

However, this one seems strange. If there was a health and safety issue, e.g. it could hurt someone, I could understand.

The only person who may get hurt is Mrs Griffin, who has to wash and change it.

What I do find slightly annoying is the city council's inconsistent approach to enforcing rules and regulations with regard to planning.

Why is there a need to enforce this petty regulation with regard to Mrs Griffin's flag that seems to be no harm to anyone. Perhaps Peterborough City Council should review its policy?

I do hope you will follow up on this story as I am interested to see how Tina Griffin gets on. I wish her luck, it is a true David and Goliath story !

Philip Chilvers
Polebrook,
near Oundle


'This is such a silly rule'

Correct me if I am wrong, but your front page report in Friday's Evening Telegraph leads us to believe that flying one English flag – the flag of Saint George – is OK, but to fly two or more is illegal and "against regulations", because it is advertising and needs planning consent.

I am tempted to ask, advertising what? And, what regulations? Is it the law of the land, a local by-law, or would it be a law dreamed up by the EU?

If it is any of these, who was stupid enough to pass such a restriction on our civil liberties?

Thousands of homes in Canada and America have flagpoles in, what they call, their front yards proudly flying the maple leaf or the stars and stripes. But then, those are free countries, aren't they?

One final thought, the house opposite ours has no less than three estate agents' boards saying that the house is up for sale – a blatant piece of advertising I would say, and no application for planning consent have I seen!

Where on Earth is this country going?

Ron Ward
St Paul's Road
Peterborough


'Council's position may be correct'

I WAS interested to read of the plight of Tina Griffin in connection with her flying the flag of St George from her property.

It is alleged in the article that the flags are unauthorised advertising. It is true, given the wide definition of advertising in the appropriate statute, that a flag is advertising.

It is also the case that 10 types of advertisement are exempted from control.

Class I is the display of any national flag on a single flagstaff. Mrs Griffin may have more than one flagstaff. That could be a problem – remove one and the position may well change.

Unless, of course, the argument is that the Cross of St George is not a national flag. In which case we ought to be told, human rights can be mentioned, and the Welsh and Scottish referred to for comparison.

Martin Blackwell
Managing Director,
Blackwell Consulting Ltd,
Priestgate,
Peterborough
03 May 2005
_________________
Lord Hugh Cecil 1918



"the truth is that colouring federalism with nationalism is like painting a rat red: it kills the animal.

Federalism and Nationalism are contradictory and mutually Fatal".

[wonkotsane]

I think it's time we took this to the nationals.
_________________
English first, British second

Stuart Parr aka wonkotsane
Wonko's World Blog

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